The best and easy way to convince your wife

[Plumplover]

Hello there,

I know many men here have already explained how they convinced their wife to become a Hotwife. I want to share my own experience, because I believe most women actually would enjoy this lifestyle—if only they could overcome the heavy obstacles in their mind.

From my point of view, the desire is there in almost every woman, but it’s buried under layers of education, guilt, insecurity, and fear. Let me explain.

⸻

The Two Biggest Obstacles
1. Cultural conditioning.
We live in a world where monogamy is the default. Everything else is branded “weird,” “unhealthy,” or a sign that the couple doesn’t truly love each other. Women are raised with the idea that even thinking about another man is shameful.
2. Self-image and confidence.
Most women struggle with insecurities. They think they’re too big, too small, not pretty enough, breasts not right, body not good enough. In fact, I believe 99% of women don’t fully love themselves. That insecurity makes the idea of being desired by another man feel threatening, not empowering.

My wife was a perfect example. When I met her, I thought she was absolute perfection. She didn’t believe it. Her ex-boyfriends had insulted her, called her fat, told her to lose weight. Years of cruel words destroyed her self-esteem. She truly believed she was ugly, unworthy, undesirable.

And yet, I had been fantasizing about sharing my wife long before we married. After the wedding, I thought: “She’s the love of my life—surely she’ll accept my fantasy.” So I told her.

She listened. She acknowledged it was something I wanted. But for her? It wasn’t exciting at all. In fact, it made her uncomfortable. The more I tried to bring it up, the colder she became about it.

That’s when an older guy (65) I met on a forum told me bluntly: “You’re doing it wrong. Keep pushing like this, and she’ll never say yes.” He had decades of experience, even shared videos of his wife in gangbangs. He became my mentor. I followed his advice step by step, without questioning. And it changed everything.

So let me share this method with you.

⸻

The Method (detailed step-by-step)

STEP 1. Forget your fantasy (for now).

For the next few months, stop talking about seeing her with another man. Act like the thought doesn’t exist anymore. If she feels pressure, she’ll resist forever.

This isn’t about manipulation—it’s about giving her space to breathe, while you prepare the ground in a smarter way.

⸻

STEP 2. Build her confidence (the foundation).

This is the most important part. If you skip it, nothing else will ever work.

Start a playful game: “I dare you to be more sexy for me.”

Every day, challenge her gently to step just a little outside her comfort zone:
• If she never wears lace underwear → ask her to try it.
• If she always wears pants → dare her to wear a dress.
• If she already wears dresses → dare her to try a shorter one, or no bra under it.

The golden rule: it must always be “for you.”

Then, each time she does it, reward her with the A–F system:
• A. Notice and exaggerate: “Wow, I love that dress on you!”
• B. Thank her: “It means so much that you did this for me.”
• C. Tell her she’s more beautiful.
• D. Tell her she excites you more.
• E. Tell her you love her more because of it.
• F. Show it in bed (or as soon as you can).

You must overplay your reaction. Make her feel like every little effort is a huge turn-on for you.

What happens in her mind?
She realizes: “That was easy. He loved it. He loves me more. He wants me more.” She’ll begin wanting to play the game.

With my wife, it became natural—she started asking: “What do you want me to wear today?” Within weeks, she had transformed her entire style. Even grocery shopping became an occasion for her to dress sexy. Our sex life exploded.

⸻

STEP 3. Introduce “outside attention.”

Once she dresses more confidently, start pointing out (or inventing) moments when other men notice her:
• “Wow, did you see how those guys were staring at you?”
• “That man couldn’t take his eyes off your legs.”

It doesn’t matter if it’s true. The point is to make her believe she is attracting attention.

Later, in bed, reinforce it:
• AA. Remind her that men were looking at her.
• BB. Tell her that it turns you on.
• CC. Say she looks even more beautiful when others desire her.
• DD. Say you want her more when men notice her.
• EE. Tell her you’re proud of her and love her more.
• FF. Fuck her passionately while repeating AA–EE.
• GG. After sex, cuddle and repeat the praise.

What happens in her mind?
She begins associating: “Dressing sexy → other men desire me → my husband loves it → he fucks me harder → he loves me more.”

Soon she will tease men on purpose, enjoying their looks. Her self-confidence will skyrocket.

⸻

STEP 4. Normalize the fantasy.

Now she’s more confident, playful, and used to outside attention. This is the moment to carefully bring in your fantasy—slowly, indirectly, and always in a fun, sexy way.

Do it during sex, when she’s highly aroused. Examples:
• Ask who the hottest man she saw today was.
• Ask which actor she’d ...... with if she could.
• Give her dildo a celebrity’s name and play with that idea.
• Ask playful threesome questions: “Would you prefer someone taller than me? Younger? More experienced?”

The trick: do it as a game and at moments of high arousal, so her brain links orgasm with the idea of another man.

For us, once I started weaving these questions into sex, the taboo disappeared. She started enjoying the fantasy too.

⸻

STEP 5. Explore her tastes.

When she’s comfortable, show her pictures of potential partners—but only the best candidates matching her preferences. Never overload her.

For example, my wife’s criteria were: tall, muscular, over 30, dominant, well-endowed, and experienced. I only showed her men that ticked every box.

Only show them during sex, never casually. This keeps it exciting and erotic.

⸻

STEP 6. Let her take the final step.

If you’ve done everything right, the shift will happen naturally. One day, she will be the one saying: “Why don’t we try it with this guy?”

⸻

My Results

I didn’t invent this method. I simply followed it with patience and discipline. It worked perfectly for me.

Within 2–3 months, my wife had transformed from insecure and resistant into confident, sexy, and open. She started wearing miniskirts without bras to restaurants, teasing waiters, and enjoying the attention. Our sex life reached another level.

We are still beginners (only two threesomes so far), but she is now the one excited to try more. And best of all, she feels more beautiful, more confident, and more desired than ever before.

⸻

👉 This is a long process. It requires patience, consistency, and genuine care for her self-esteem. But if you follow it step by step, it works.

Great advice! I've recently persuaded her to dress a bit sluttier when we go out and bought her some new thongs. I'm starting to get her there now. Thank you.

 

[Stevens4fun]

Luck, timing, right situation, and previous experiences heavily influence how couples approach the idea of the wife enjoying other men, in my view. It's going to play differently for newbies than it will for married or previously married couples. For some of us, there's no "convincing" needed. And for some of us, we are too knew in the relationship to understand that our wife may be harboring some of the same desires - bringing it up is a huge mountain to climb. How well do you really know your wife?

As noted elsewhere in this discussion, I've experienced how beneficial it is for hubby to NOT pressure his wife. If hubby's interests become a campaign, she will never play. - she'll just resent it when hubby brings it up and it becomes a power play in the marriage. You don't want to go there.

My wife told me I was putting too much pressure on her, - that she wanted to fuck a certain guy, but "let me handle it at my own pace, and all of your dreams will come true" is what she said to me. It was later that she told me she already had one BF she wanted to continue with if I could "live with it," - "if not, she'd cut it off," she said. So there it was. Time for me to come clean - she'd articulated what she was thinking in general terms - a bold step on her part. I told her I'd be highly aroused if she continued with him, and my rapidly growing cock told her all she needed to know. Men who haven't yet experienced this stuff will have a hard time internalizing this sort of thing, I'm sure. Just know: at some point in time, both partners in the marriage have to articulate what it is that they think they want, without fear of reprisals.

I was lucky and my wife would also say she was lucky that she'd experienced multiple partner scenarios before we met (so it's a timing factor as well - seredipity, some might say), and she liked what happened. While there's so many ways that luck plays a factor, there's way too many different situations in play to discuss them all but discussing previous fun times opens up the possibilities in some cases.

Once we've been married and experienced a few years of married life it becomes easier to talk about sharing or what some call "hotwife" arrangements. As my soon-to-be-wife and I were dating, our previous marriage seasoning/experiences made it easy to talk about what we'd experienced and what we'd like to experience. At that point: It's not so awkward to tell our wife about the erotic stuff we think about, and she'll be more comfortable telling hubby about her best sex ever and all the stuff she wants to try. My wife was comfortable telling me before we married (but after we'd had sex many times) that her "best sex ever" was with a BF she was still seeing once a month. It helped that we were naked in bed and we'd had a couple of glasses of wine as we began our foreplay with hot talk. We were learning how to push each other's buttons.

Luck and timing, right situation: second marriage for both of us. We'd agreed that she was open to multiple men scenarios - small gang bangs as some would say, but with the right guys. Not as a regular thing, but it sure would be sexy and fun, she said. She'd experienced DP (and loved it, she said) but her desire was "a man on each breast, a man in her at the same time, and hard guys waiting." We'd also agreed that whether or not I was there or aware of it, she would move ahead if the opportunity was there. It happened about a year into our marriage after a corporate management meeting in a business suite at an airport Marriott. There'd been sexy talk during the breaks in the meeting and one of the guys asked her if she'd be open to joining them for drinks afterwards. After top management left, clothes came off and the fun started. They were three hours into it when I finally arrived. Long story short, after the last of the four guys who actually fucked her was just starting to finish in her (on the couch in the big meeting room) the previous two were getting dressed to leave - that's when I came in. I fucked her while they watched, but she asked me to "please make it fast, I'm really sore, and I need to go home." I granted her wish. It was easy, - I'd just watched a guy finish in her and when she opened her legs to invite me to take her, the visual was glorious. Thats the part that's addicting. Be ready......

 

[chapelhill154]

Thanks for the advice. I am about 6 weeks in. It is going ok, but I have to admit it is a lot harder to be patient with this method than I thought it would be. I also find myself frustrated when she thinks she is dressing sexy, but the outfit is average. It seems she is great at wearing a sexy bra and sexy panties, but not great with what she wears over top. Any suggestions? Also, would it help or hurt if I suggest an outfit for her? My wife has a great sex drive and is amazing in bed; however, I don’t feel confident that she will make the leap to mmf. I am not totally convinced this will work, but it is definitely worth trying.

 

[triciawest1970]

Thanks for the advice. I am about 6 weeks in. It is going ok, but I have to admit it is a lot harder to be patient with this method than I thought it would be. I also find myself frustrated when she thinks she is dressing sexy, but the outfit is average. It seems she is great at wearing a sexy bra and sexy panties, but not great with what she wears over top. Any suggestions? Also, would it help or hurt if I suggest an outfit for her? My wife has a great sex drive and is amazing in bed; however, I don’t feel confident that she will make the leap to mmf. I am not totally convinced this will work, but it is definitely worth trying.

I had to have the conversation last night to let things happen organically and not to push it and it would happen (with my husband). So, that would be my thoughts on this situation also.

 

[Fl2play]

I had to have the conversation last night to let things happen organically and not to push it and it would happen (with my husband). So, that would be my thoughts on this situation also.

Exactly... last thing you want to do is forse it on her..
Is she open to nude/topless clubs with you?? That's another suggestion I've used successfully to build her self confidence..

 

[chapelhill154]

No, she doesn’t have interest in those clubs. I feel like one of the biggest hurdles is getting her to the point where she enjoys the attention from other men. She is pretty conservative.

 

[Fl2play]

No, she doesn’t have interest in those clubs. I feel like one of the biggest hurdles is getting her to the point where she enjoys the attention from other men. She is pretty conservative.

Well good luck and stay the course... lifestyle clubs will definitely boost her self image..

 

[RoseandArt]

Hello there,

I know many men here have already explained how they convinced their wife to become a Hotwife. I want to share my own experience, because I believe most women actually would enjoy this lifestyle—if only they could overcome the heavy obstacles in their mind.

From my point of view, the desire is there in almost every woman, but it’s buried under layers of education, guilt, insecurity, and fear. Let me explain.

⸻

The Two Biggest Obstacles
1. Cultural conditioning.
We live in a world where monogamy is the default. Everything else is branded “weird,” “unhealthy,” or a sign that the couple doesn’t truly love each other. Women are raised with the idea that even thinking about another man is shameful.
2. Self-image and confidence.
Most women struggle with insecurities. They think they’re too big, too small, not pretty enough, breasts not right, body not good enough. In fact, I believe 99% of women don’t fully love themselves. That insecurity makes the idea of being desired by another man feel threatening, not empowering.

My wife was a perfect example. When I met her, I thought she was absolute perfection. She didn’t believe it. Her ex-boyfriends had insulted her, called her fat, told her to lose weight. Years of cruel words destroyed her self-esteem. She truly believed she was ugly, unworthy, undesirable.

And yet, I had been fantasizing about sharing my wife long before we married. After the wedding, I thought: “She’s the love of my life—surely she’ll accept my fantasy.” So I told her.

She listened. She acknowledged it was something I wanted. But for her? It wasn’t exciting at all. In fact, it made her uncomfortable. The more I tried to bring it up, the colder she became about it.

That’s when an older guy (65) I met on a forum told me bluntly: “You’re doing it wrong. Keep pushing like this, and she’ll never say yes.” He had decades of experience, even shared videos of his wife in gangbangs. He became my mentor. I followed his advice step by step, without questioning. And it changed everything.

So let me share this method with you.

⸻

The Method (detailed step-by-step)

STEP 1. Forget your fantasy (for now).

For the next few months, stop talking about seeing her with another man. Act like the thought doesn’t exist anymore. If she feels pressure, she’ll resist forever.

This isn’t about manipulation—it’s about giving her space to breathe, while you prepare the ground in a smarter way.

⸻

STEP 2. Build her confidence (the foundation).

This is the most important part. If you skip it, nothing else will ever work.

Start a playful game: “I dare you to be more sexy for me.”

Every day, challenge her gently to step just a little outside her comfort zone:
• If she never wears lace underwear → ask her to try it.
• If she always wears pants → dare her to wear a dress.
• If she already wears dresses → dare her to try a shorter one, or no bra under it.

The golden rule: it must always be “for you.”

Then, each time she does it, reward her with the A–F system:
• A. Notice and exaggerate: “Wow, I love that dress on you!”
• B. Thank her: “It means so much that you did this for me.”
• C. Tell her she’s more beautiful.
• D. Tell her she excites you more.
• E. Tell her you love her more because of it.
• F. Show it in bed (or as soon as you can).

You must overplay your reaction. Make her feel like every little effort is a huge turn-on for you.

What happens in her mind?
She realizes: “That was easy. He loved it. He loves me more. He wants me more.” She’ll begin wanting to play the game.

With my wife, it became natural—she started asking: “What do you want me to wear today?” Within weeks, she had transformed her entire style. Even grocery shopping became an occasion for her to dress sexy. Our sex life exploded.

⸻

STEP 3. Introduce “outside attention.”

Once she dresses more confidently, start pointing out (or inventing) moments when other men notice her:
• “Wow, did you see how those guys were staring at you?”
• “That man couldn’t take his eyes off your legs.”

It doesn’t matter if it’s true. The point is to make her believe she is attracting attention.

Later, in bed, reinforce it:
• AA. Remind her that men were looking at her.
• BB. Tell her that it turns you on.
• CC. Say she looks even more beautiful when others desire her.
• DD. Say you want her more when men notice her.
• EE. Tell her you’re proud of her and love her more.
• FF. Fuck her passionately while repeating AA–EE.
• GG. After sex, cuddle and repeat the praise.

What happens in her mind?
She begins associating: “Dressing sexy → other men desire me → my husband loves it → he fucks me harder → he loves me more.”

Soon she will tease men on purpose, enjoying their looks. Her self-confidence will skyrocket.

⸻

STEP 4. Normalize the fantasy.

Now she’s more confident, playful, and used to outside attention. This is the moment to carefully bring in your fantasy—slowly, indirectly, and always in a fun, sexy way.

Do it during sex, when she’s highly aroused. Examples:
• Ask who the hottest man she saw today was.
• Ask which actor she’d ...... with if she could.
• Give her dildo a celebrity’s name and play with that idea.
• Ask playful threesome questions: “Would you prefer someone taller than me? Younger? More experienced?”

The trick: do it as a game and at moments of high arousal, so her brain links orgasm with the idea of another man.

For us, once I started weaving these questions into sex, the taboo disappeared. She started enjoying the fantasy too.

⸻

STEP 5. Explore her tastes.

When she’s comfortable, show her pictures of potential partners—but only the best candidates matching her preferences. Never overload her.

For example, my wife’s criteria were: tall, muscular, over 30, dominant, well-endowed, and experienced. I only showed her men that ticked every box.

Only show them during sex, never casually. This keeps it exciting and erotic.

⸻

STEP 6. Let her take the final step.

If you’ve done everything right, the shift will happen naturally. One day, she will be the one saying: “Why don’t we try it with this guy?”

⸻

My Results

I didn’t invent this method. I simply followed it with patience and discipline. It worked perfectly for me.

Within 2–3 months, my wife had transformed from insecure and resistant into confident, sexy, and open. She started wearing miniskirts without bras to restaurants, teasing waiters, and enjoying the attention. Our sex life reached another level.

We are still beginners (only two threesomes so far), but she is now the one excited to try more. And best of all, she feels more beautiful, more confident, and more desired than ever before.

⸻

👉 This is a long process. It requires patience, consistency, and genuine care for her self-esteem. But if you follow it step by step, it works.

Like this advice very much. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Fl2play]

Ounce my lady was ok with me having dirty magazines. She told me later that she would look at them and play with herself and she liked that we both could get off to the same thing. That originally loosened her up to being attracted to other women and not feeling guilty about wanting to feel a cock the size in the magazines. We still enjoy looking at magazines.View attachment 2884028

Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt were true pioneers 👍

 

[bensanderson]

Luck, timing, right situation, and previous experiences heavily influence how couples approach the idea of the wife enjoying other men, in my view. It's going to play differently for newbies than it will for married or previously married couples. For some of us, there's no "convincing" needed. And for some of us, we are too knew in the relationship to understand that our wife may be harboring some of the same desires - bringing it up is a huge mountain to climb. How well do you really know your wife?

As noted elsewhere in this discussion, I've experienced how beneficial it is for hubby to NOT pressure his wife. If hubby's interests become a campaign, she will never play. - she'll just resent it when hubby brings it up and it becomes a power play in the marriage. You don't want to go there.

My wife told me I was putting too much pressure on her, - that she wanted to fuck a certain guy, but "let me handle it at my own pace, and all of your dreams will come true" is what she said to me. It was later that she told me she already had one BF she wanted to continue with if I could "live with it," - "if not, she'd cut it off," she said. So there it was. Time for me to come clean - she'd articulated what she was thinking in general terms - a bold step on her part. I told her I'd be highly aroused if she continued with him, and my rapidly growing cock told her all she needed to know. Men who haven't yet experienced this stuff will have a hard time internalizing this sort of thing, I'm sure. Just know: at some point in time, both partners in the marriage have to articulate what it is that they think they want, without fear of reprisals.

I was lucky and my wife would also say she was lucky that she'd experienced multiple partner scenarios before we met (so it's a timing factor as well - seredipity, some might say), and she liked what happened. While there's so many ways that luck plays a factor, there's way too many different situations in play to discuss them all but discussing previous fun times opens up the possibilities in some cases.

Once we've been married and experienced a few years of married life it becomes easier to talk about sharing or what some call "hotwife" arrangements. As my soon-to-be-wife and I were dating, our previous marriage seasoning/experiences made it easy to talk about what we'd experienced and what we'd like to experience. At that point: It's not so awkward to tell our wife about the erotic stuff we think about, and she'll be more comfortable telling hubby about her best sex ever and all the stuff she wants to try. My wife was comfortable telling me before we married (but after we'd had sex many times) that her "best sex ever" was with a BF she was still seeing once a month. It helped that we were naked in bed and we'd had a couple of glasses of wine as we began our foreplay with hot talk. We were learning how to push each other's buttons.

Luck and timing, right situation: second marriage for both of us. We'd agreed that she was open to multiple men scenarios - small gang bangs as some would say, but with the right guys. Not as a regular thing, but it sure would be sexy and fun, she said. She'd experienced DP (and loved it, she said) but her desire was "a man on each breast, a man in her at the same time, and hard guys waiting." We'd also agreed that whether or not I was there or aware of it, she would move ahead if the opportunity was there. It happened about a year into our marriage after a corporate management meeting in a business suite at an airport Marriott. There'd been sexy talk during the breaks in the meeting and one of the guys asked her if she'd be open to joining them for drinks afterwards. After top management left, clothes came off and the fun started. They were three hours into it when I finally arrived. Long story short, after the last of the four guys who actually fucked her was just starting to finish in her (on the couch in the big meeting room) the previous two were getting dressed to leave - that's when I came in. I fucked her while they watched, but she asked me to "please make it fast, I'm really sore, and I need to go home." I granted her wish. It was easy, - I'd just watched a guy finish in her and when she opened her legs to invite me to take her, the visual was glorious. Thats the part that's addicting. Be ready......

 

[bensanderson]

Luck, timing, right situation, and previous experiences heavily influence how couples approach the idea of the wife enjoying other men, in my view. It's going to play differently for newbies than it will for married or previously married couples. For some of us, there's no "convincing" needed. And for some of us, we are too knew in the relationship to understand that our wife may be harboring some of the same desires - bringing it up is a huge mountain to climb. How well do you really know your wife?

As noted elsewhere in this discussion, I've experienced how beneficial it is for hubby to NOT pressure his wife. If hubby's interests become a campaign, she will never play. - she'll just resent it when hubby brings it up and it becomes a power play in the marriage. You don't want to go there.

My wife told me I was putting too much pressure on her, - that she wanted to fuck a certain guy, but "let me handle it at my own pace, and all of your dreams will come true" is what she said to me. It was later that she told me she already had one BF she wanted to continue with if I could "live with it," - "if not, she'd cut it off," she said. So there it was. Time for me to come clean - she'd articulated what she was thinking in general terms - a bold step on her part. I told her I'd be highly aroused if she continued with him, and my rapidly growing cock told her all she needed to know. Men who haven't yet experienced this stuff will have a hard time internalizing this sort of thing, I'm sure. Just know: at some point in time, both partners in the marriage have to articulate what it is that they think they want, without fear of reprisals.

I was lucky and my wife would also say she was lucky that she'd experienced multiple partner scenarios before we met (so it's a timing factor as well - seredipity, some might say), and she liked what happened. While there's so many ways that luck plays a factor, there's way too many different situations in play to discuss them all but discussing previous fun times opens up the possibilities in some cases.

Once we've been married and experienced a few years of married life it becomes easier to talk about sharing or what some call "hotwife" arrangements. As my soon-to-be-wife and I were dating, our previous marriage seasoning/experiences made it easy to talk about what we'd experienced and what we'd like to experience. At that point: It's not so awkward to tell our wife about the erotic stuff we think about, and she'll be more comfortable telling hubby about her best sex ever and all the stuff she wants to try. My wife was comfortable telling me before we married (but after we'd had sex many times) that her "best sex ever" was with a BF she was still seeing once a month. It helped that we were naked in bed and we'd had a couple of glasses of wine as we began our foreplay with hot talk. We were learning how to push each other's buttons.

Luck and timing, right situation: second marriage for both of us. We'd agreed that she was open to multiple men scenarios - small gang bangs as some would say, but with the right guys. Not as a regular thing, but it sure would be sexy and fun, she said. She'd experienced DP (and loved it, she said) but her desire was "a man on each breast, a man in her at the same time, and hard guys waiting." We'd also agreed that whether or not I was there or aware of it, she would move ahead if the opportunity was there. It happened about a year into our marriage after a corporate management meeting in a business suite at an airport Marriott. There'd been sexy talk during the breaks in the meeting and one of the guys asked her if she'd be open to joining them for drinks afterwards. After top management left, clothes came off and the fun started. They were three hours into it when I finally arrived. Long story short, after the last of the four guys who actually fucked her was just starting to finish in her (on the couch in the big meeting room) the previous two were getting dressed to leave - that's when I came in. I fucked her while they watched, but she asked me to "please make it fast, I'm really sore, and I need to go home." I granted her wish. It was easy, - I'd just watched a guy finish in her and when she opened her legs to invite me to take her, the visual was glorious. Thats the part that's addicting. Be ready......

This man who wrote this is very wise, he absolutely nails it. Luck, timing and the right situation. There are usually angles to use, but at some point honesty is best. You never know if you’re going to cross a line you can’t come back from.

 

[Polariodcouple]

There is no convincing your wife.i'm a woman . i love cock.always have,if your wife is not into it you will not "convince" her ...have a wank and ...... on it

 

[Locked]

There is no convincing your wife.i'm a woman . i love cock.always have,if your wife is not into it you will not "convince" her ...have a wank and ...... on it

Unfortunately I have to agree. I don't want to agree. I want to hope convincing is possible, but everything points out you are right and there is no convincing.

 

[vader 77]

Superb post.

Secrecy another big part; not doing it in your hometown seems important. The cultural prejudice is so extreme in the US at least that you must assuge her fears of anyone she knows discovering the lifestyle.

I couldn’t agree more my wife and I do it well on vacation so there’s no chance that you’ll ever run into these guys again